From 60514d992502cacf4fccf531bd2289306fc6983e Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Keith Hazelton Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 13:47:03 -0600 Subject: [PATCH] Update ps2grouper.adoc --- ps2grouper.adoc | 493 ------------------------------------------------ 1 file changed, 493 deletions(-) diff --git a/ps2grouper.adoc b/ps2grouper.adoc index 9dc8564..c576e26 100644 --- a/ps2grouper.adoc +++ b/ps2grouper.adoc @@ -67,496 +67,3 @@ teaching assistant, all of those kinds of roles. Currently, the majority of our courses are in sakai but we are trying to migrate to canvas. So we have something a little bit larger than pilot groups on campus at this point. - - - - - -00:58:02/01:00:44 -Audio Transcript - - - this is something - we need to figure out. We needed to figure it out for a while. ! I don't think we're quite there yet, but we have more pieces in place, and what that needful thing is is to make the kind of material that we've presented to each other and talk to each other about and drafted docents about make that more useful to the community. ! And help answer some of their nagging questions "Please provide guidance on this or I'm considering - this. And I notice that there's functionality from - these tap components more than one of them. And then there's also all this commercial stuff. - So the frame of mind i'd like to ask us to be in today is is basically - imagining what form of materials what presentation - would serve the needs of that. - - One major effort to go in this direction - was requested something on the order of a year ago from Cirrus identity to come up with the - example. I am architecture and some - classic use cases - that would move us in this direction. Get us with a sort of basic - foundation for being able to do this kind of compare and contrast thing, and and answer some of the questions from folks., so that Lincoln one A will take you over to that, and I will go there - now, and B. C and d essentially highlight different parts of that, and I - we'll kind of step through those - over on that draft. So - IAM reference architecture. It's clearly everybody involved considers this a draft, - and this is one of the first extended groups to have a look at it. - ! And that's exciting in itself. ! So - I guess what I thought was a really well useful place to start with looking at the objectives, because these are, I think, things that we would agree are important objectives. So come up with this family of use. Cases - that are pretty common., but kind of touch on different aspects of how I am supports the enterprise. - . And then to find baseline deployments. - primarily, if not exclusively, drawn from mashups of tap components. - And say, Okay? Well, if you've got used case one federated access here are the ways that the tap components can be wired together to solve that. - And then, - we don't want to stop there because - of nber three, which is that - we want to figure out a way so that organizations or other solution providers can - - defined alternative ways to essentially meet the same use cases, maybe, or meet one that's related, but not identical. And do these in a way that we might call overlays, meaning. The basic - framework is still there, but we're substituting other things for tap components or different tap components for other functions, and so forth. And then ! They set themselves the task of starting to suggest some alternative deployment overlays - and so that that's kind of where i'd like to us to go today when we get into - taking up one presentation, we've heard which is one from Ethan - about Peoplesoft group or integration - and kind of running through a very similar exercise to what we just outlined here. - ! The docent from serious goes through - some generic capabilities. And - at sort of basic treatment of the tap - architecture components. - And then we get into these five used cases and let's see. So used case one Federation enablement. I don't think there's a lot of mystery about what that is basically trying to reach across multiple organizations and - share access to external service providers, or share access from one institution to others, and things like that. ! Not too surprising, then, for each of these in this docent they provide examples - a little more specific right? And then they have - worked on identifying the audience that would care about this use case. - And then this is a relatively, - we haven't done a lot of this kind of thing ourselves, at least in this software integration group, - which which is to lay out a a user's story end user experience, step by step. ! That shows them accomplishing what they set out to accomplish. - And then finally, there's the tap baseline which components you might use for - to accomplish that, and how you wire them together. - The other four are a managing access, - I think, to most of us on the call, we can - pretty much brought what that is likely to be about scholarly collaboration - both within and beyond the boundaries of the institution, - and then guest systems and Guest is a very broad category. Here you can see from these bullets - that guest is a nice brella term, covering everything from job applicants - to alni donors and vendors, and so forth. ! - And they go through all that - and same pattern of subsections on each of those - and the tap, baseline and identity life cycle management - use case that they address. So I think you can see how those five pretty much - - cover in one way or another. Some of the major use cases in - in our space. - , - And I guess in this final section called suggested alternative implementations. - I wanted to highlight this sentence in red here., that the whole point of this was to facilitate, follow on docentation - of alternative implementations or overlays - that incorporate under legacy systems and other non-tap components. So this is kind of like the opening gambit if you will but we know that to meet the needs of the broadest - range of campuses. We have to also cover situations that are likely to be hybrid or - mixes and matches of things mashups. - So - And I think maybe the intent here was to focus this all on those five - specific use cases. I think that might be. - Well, let's. We'll see how that bears out. I I suspect it. - We might come up with some interesting material on presentations that are quite - aligned with one of the five here, but I don't think that's as critical as the basic approach, and for these five we certainly do want to lay out - alternatives along the way. - : So basically, - the challenge to us. So one E: basically, we're being asked you, all and others will be asked to review this offer comments and suggestions and, and eventually then still start identifying next steps. - , One of the next steps kinds of things is this next bit Here - this came up this business of having people present on - Peoplesoft to Grouper integration. Stories came out of the people, soft integration working group, - and I see Tommy is here, so that ah! As the chair of that group and other members of that working group are here as well. - , - and we've gone through a a series of those four of those presentations from late smer until fairly recently. - and that a few of us, Tommy, and then from - Illinois State University. I'm glancing in here here in here today, - but anyway, and Ethan raised their hands when asked - if they would take part in reviewing this, and again trying to - extract the essence of it, and fit that into some kind of framework that we're talking about. That would be useful to the rest of the folks. So if people are game - for that, the next thing I would do is start the replay of about thirteen minutes of - Ethan's presentation from July the twenty nine, I think. - , But let me kind of pause there and catch my breath and - entertain any kind of questions or - concerns. Or maybe you've had some ideas already of things that would kind of address this business of how we help our peers, - - What I - I wanted to talk about today is is just basically how our data currently gets from Peoplesoft - to - . There's maybe a a story that I I didn't include about how group or data it gets indirectly to Peoplesoft. But maybe I can kind of comment - a comment about that at the end. - But we've got kind of three main paths the data goes through to get from from Peoplesoft to to Grouper. the The first one kind of the the largest and most complex is our our homegrown Java app. We call it directory manager, but it's basically been - the place where the business logic happens for deciding people's, affiliation states and things like that, and getting those things published out to particularly the Open LDAP Directory, but also Active Directory. - So the that that path through Directory Manager includes our oldest integration, which is with campus solutions. We brought up campus solutions in two thousand and nine well ahead of bringing up the HR And finance modules. - . The The integrations are messaging, and so and the reason for those two different transports are that the original campus solutions integration was all messaging. - I'm gonna jp in here to try to - reload this presentation and overcome the network here that just through a nice big X on things. So i'll try to pick up where we left off if I get this - and then the ones that are polling or polling every five minutes. So those are still, close enough to real time to for people to be unbothered by the by, the data integration. - A second path that we use is, we we want informatica, which is - an etl tool - , So the main thing that's that's used for is for developers - user avatar - Bill / Internet2 - 00:18:29 - you want to unmute Ethan? - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:18:31 - he didn't do that. My flaky network did it so i'm gonna go inside closer to the router and - wireless, and we'll try again. Sorry about this folks. - That's the - first time I've had that kind of issues in a good long while. - user avatar - Ethan Kromhout - 00:18:51 - Yeah, although I I would naturally tend to mute me if I could. So - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:19:03 - relocating. And then we'll pick it up again, - or maybe well, no, it's pretty much a couple of good. - Get somebody else to pull up, - hey? I got it. - Oh, yeah, that's a nice feature. - It does that it might - Firefox browser probably just need to shut things down and starting in. But I think I've got it - looking over here. Let's see. - Make bit today. - Yeah, I believe we're about or that the original campus solutions integration was all messaging based. and then we just found that later upholding strategy was perhaps, at least as effective as the messaging we were doing. - And so when we did the integrations with HR And Finance those were done as as so transport integrations - and kind of either way it's It's pretty close to real time. So the the information that's pushed by messaging. And course that's when there is a ton of changes that kind of back things up are really into - Yes, - and then the ones that are polling or polling every five minutes. So just to let you know we're not seeing the slides at this point i'm bothered by the by, the data integration, but a second path that we use - it, says i'm screen sharing. Now, is that true? - I'm seeing the It's the It's the multiple desktop conundr. - I know I know - user avatar - Unknown Speaker - 00:24:30 - gotta stop sharing this one - user avatar - Unknown Speaker - 00:24:34 - and then share this other one. - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:24:44 - Perhaps now it is correct. - Is - we? We run in for America, which is a nhl tool. - . So the main thing that's that's used for is for developers kind of in the group that runs Peoplesoft to write queries, - and then either push those out the different locations, or create apis in informatica for people to retrieve data without having direct database access. - So the developers in relation to group or do a fair amount of querying of things in those databases, and then pushing information into Grouper for a couple of use cases i'll talk a little bit more about. - And then lastly, I I would, I should mention. Is it near real time for those other integrations. In the case of the informatic etls, it's really up to the developer. Most of those are things that run on kind of a daily cycle. But, the developer in informatic that has the - capability to schedule things as often as they want them to run. It really is up to them. - Excuse me, The The last way is for you a group of loader jobs we have many, many dozens of loader jobs running in Grouper but some of those do run directly against Peoplesoft databases - and those tend to run three or four times a day. So they're They're less real time than our directory manager. Application, but still have some kind of a a fixed schedule. That's up to the idm team that runs group or the to decide how often they run. - So this first little wanted to talk about is the one that goes via Directory manager. So this is our home home growing at - so kind of as I mentioned Peoplesoft campus solutions we've got triggers on a nber of the Bio demo tables inside campus solutions., as well as some of the students. basic student information. - So whenever those bio demo tables show. Any kind of change or status change happens with the student. then a database trigger causes a message to go out to integration broker, - and then we have a configuration. Integration. Broker is so that it can speak Jms. to our Directory manager application. So that's That's the the first flow in the flow for the campus solutions - our information, the the student status as it flows to Directory manager is fairly specific. We get a a nice, - a array of information that that arrives at Directory manager, and if we're getting to get published out to build out - . So you know the students, Major. - miners what year they are what their status are. They prematriculated? Admitted. They are full on student. That kind of thing is all conveyed via those messages, and then business logic to publish those into reasonable affiliations happens inside Directory Manager, - a Directory manager also does those so queries that I mentioned. So that's the direction we decided to go with - HRAnd in finance. So it connects to Hcm. and queries for jobs and associations and associations with the construct that we use here., for the these sort of - poorly worded affiliate status which is basically your sponsored researchers - contractors anybody who you can't really say is an employee of the university, but still has quite a formal relationship with the University goes through this what we call our affiliate process, and that creates those associations. The Directory manager is is what they call every five minutes or So - for any new jobs and associations that are available. And then also, once a week, has a a a so pinpoint that a call and say, Okay, cycle through and give me everybody so that it can do a full synchronization. - And then there's just a very simple query over to Peoplesoft finance, really. Only thing that I am cares about from - our finance installation is what are the department names? So it gets nbers department nbers that are associated with jobs or associations or student status. - , but it it's nice to have a friendly name to associate with those department nbers, and so it retrieves those friendly names from our our finance install. - And then Directory manager is responsible for essentially has its own open ldap instance running kind of locally to that application, and then we use the built-in open all that sync where to? To? To to that out to our our large open - installation, and then finally, That's where Grouper can run. It's loader jobs and retrieve things from Ldap. So just like we run loader jobs for databases. We've got these that run directly against our open laptop installation, and that gives group or, - first of all, it's subject source, - but also affiliations with student type and departments all come through wearing that open all that instance. So this. These are fairly indirect, as obviously. But as I mentioned, they perform well that this works. - , it's just kind of - old and - very you and C specific - the The second flow that we have I mentioned informatica, - and it's doing sql queries into any of the big towers along with some other data sources. Honestly, it's just here we're We're concerned about Peoplesoft - and then informatica has the capability to - push those in the group or via the group or web services. So a lot of the roles that are people solve security folks create are useful in other applications besides just inside people's, so they they function. As for - proxies to other data that people might have access to because of the roles that they have. And and one of the Peoplesoft powers. So, for example, they can go to a data warehouse. - and instead of having a separate role structure for the data warehouse the people self-security folks would rather just replicate those roles that they have, and people solve the Grouper, and then ! It can be queried, or L. That can be queried - to retrieve that information about those roles. We also do use this for some special group that our Hcm. People need to keep track of, anyway. So an example that I off the top of my head is who's in a hipaa-related department? So are you in a hip a covered entity? - ! Because there's a nber of of things that want to know that, for example, our our zoom installation needs to know if you're if or not, because it turns on and off. You know, certain capabilities inside of zoom - and . So - all of those are published. A group or many of them are then published to that to be consed. But this gives group or some knowledge about internal - people, self-security information as well as those kind of edge case groups that we haven't come across a friendly, her way to to get replicated out for consption to be a group, - and I should have said this before. But but Please interrupt with questions as we go along, because I know these paths are are fairly divergent. So it's a really, really quick one about the diagram that you're showing that Are the arrows correct? Are you taking data from and from Fromatica and sending it to people talk? Or is it the other way? - I I I usually debated which way to point these arrows, but this is our sql query, so informatic that is, reaching out to the Peoplesoft hours, The Nsql query and pulling data back. I see. - I honestly don't know what right way to the face that are up. - . So I did. I hear you use the term people's off towers. Or did I, Mis? Hear that or that? I probably said that yeah, it just took me to separate out the - kind of the big three, and I I actually she. Which reminds me, there's another gap in this diagram, which is, we do also run - it easily. The The Peoplesoft portal, - and some of those security related - roles, and what not come from that portal. So I should have also had our fourth tower, which is the Peoplesoftware - user avatar - Unknown Speaker - 00:33:57 - on this diagram. - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:34:02 - And then the the third - , - third flow. And and apparently I need to go back and remember how to spell membership. But the third flow is just direct loader jobs that people saw from that group or a queries people. Software so probably the the courses and course roles are the - main use of these queries. - We we do publish all of our courses out to group, or you know, each semester, and then break out - the different roles inside the courses. So, student student, you know, faculty primary - teaching assistant., all of those kinds of it's it's - that didn't get published out to. For example, - components that we have, - and those those really are the the three paths happy to go into more detail on any one of them, as people have questions. - , are there? So what are your Lms or any management systems, - mainly, or you have several, I guess. Yeah. Why, why would you have one? Right? So our our current Currently, the majority of our courses are in sakai - but we are trying to migrate to canvas. So we have something a little bit larger than pilot groups on campus at this point. - user avatar - Unknown Speaker - 00:36:06 - All right, - user avatar - Unknown Speaker - 00:36:07 - I believe we're back. - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:36:09 - . - So yeah, hopefully., in spite of the interruptions and things, people had their ears on for that. . - So we're now up to to see here. - - what I pulled out of this when I listen to it, - is that the - functionalities. - from I am that are getting addressed in this particular instance are the C one through four, - and those are essentially drawn from - this. I am functions list, which - we've had around for quite a long time, but we haven't made much use of - , but I thought it might be one interesting way to - I don't know, indicate what functionality is coming up in, in what different kinds of presentations are used cases. . So this was an attempt without a lot of editing, since to capture - the various capabilities - our functionalities of I am in in operation goes through a few different categories of things. - , and what - what I got on him - the presentation for me It was it - We're looking at - these - thanks Here We didn't there wasn't much talk about auditing, logging, reporting, but i'm assing that that is also part of this these these processes, so - as I say, that from that long list of all the quote unquote all the functions - these are the ones that, I believe, are addressed there, and I try to indicate a little bit of how they're related. So - provisioning and deprovisioning are supported by the functionality that that he's talking about - messaging, and the Api's and message and integration and data floats. All that stuff is core functionality, of of course. - - batch reconciliation and new real-time sync didn't talk a lot about that a little bit, - and so you could consider that, I believe, as supporting functionality or the core functions that are going on in this group or two. - user avatar - Unknown Speaker - 00:38:40 - - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:38:41 - I'm: Sorry. Yeah. People's off to go for integration. - And then finally, again auditing, logging are supporting functionalities. - . So that was kind of my dry run through of what you might - try to do to to pull out - sort of key terms or something to organize the material when you're trying to figure out which bits people might care about. - So d is essentially - my thought, and I think, I've got the three dots under d four, meaning. I'm interested in hearing. If there are people other ways that people think - , we can make use of this information rather than just, - you know, playing the whole thing. But again, always putting first in our minds. - ! - What are the kinds of situations that community community members will come to us? - They found themselves in Situation X. And they would like some guidance or help about, how they how they deal with that. - And, - this is basically a few ideas I had for it. So let's say we've assembled - any nber of these presentations or excerpts of - of presentations from Csp from software integration working presentations all over basically . And one way would be to say, Okay, this community user comes in - and, they have come in with a list of gaps that they're trying to address here, and what they do is - match that list of gaps against the functionality tally, if you will, and say, Okay, these are the functions that I'm: I need. I don't have, or I want to replace the current way. I'm addressing those - . And then the point is, if once they do that selection from the list of functions, - there'll be a response that brings back links - to use the stories that address that bit of functionality, and by doing that address, the Gap. So - you know there's there's a notion of information. What we're trying to do is give people a way to bring their question - to some intermediate point, and - have some magic done so that they see the parts of that ocean that are of greatest relevance to themselves. So that's one way. Here are your gaps here the functions let's see who is address, which function, how and then sort of a flip version of that is, - maybe they've decided that they're definitely using Grouper and shib, and that that's - really what what they know today. They probably always got some legacy stuff, But let's say they focus on group and shib, and they want to see which functions are covered by those tap components, and which ones are are not adjust, and therefore either need to be - picked up by another cap, tap, component, or some commercial thing, or maybe like, continue their legacy - way of providing that functionality., then the the other little wrinkle is some of the functionalities - might be provided by more than one component . We all we all know the you know Co. Manage midpoint group or triangle, or there's a lot lot of functional overlap if you look so anyway., they pick the components, and they get a list of the functions that are not met, - and - present the user with links to stories - that involve those components. So again, ! They gave us the components. We say, here are various bits of information we have about how those are being used. - ! - And that's really where I - run out of material - generated by my own reflections on this. And so i'd really like to take the question first back up to that higher level did. How do people think about, - - how people are likely to - show up at our door, if and present - their issues of their questions. ! And if you suggest one way they might do that, then the thing to go on to do would be to say - of all this rich ocean of material, How do we? How do we get them to the right bits? I mean conversations with them is a is a good way, of course, or work with unicorn or provisioning. I am, for an analysis of things. But - ! Are there ways to make the material we have, and we'll continue to produce. Make it more, Make it easier for them to figure out which bits they might want to focus in on. - So i'd be very happy to hear ideas people might have about that - one way might just be to use yourself as a guinea pig and say, - , - what is it that you're - hoping to get or about to try? And do you have all these things sorted about, - which it's a functionality are going to be provided by What are there questions there? - user avatar - Steve Zoppi/Internet2 - 00:44:31 - Yeah. And in fact, Keith, I was gonna suggest that people speak from personal experience first, if they can, and if they are uncomfortable doing that, we can turn off the recording . But I think the more personal stories that we have in this easier it's going to be for us to decompose - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:44:47 - and relate to others, possibly on it. But that's my two cents, for that's kind of where I worked myself around. So I like the idea. So yeah,, if you can relate, find yourself in something like this kind of story., we'd love to hear it., and maybe we can. - You get some things out from the sharing? - user avatar - Ethan Kromhout - 00:45:40 - And, Keith, I was just trying to think one interesting kind of variation on that might be the different architectures that - universities have come up with - for how they lay out the the tap components - and make decisions about the overlapping capabilities. - And then, sort of talk about the the differences between those, you know. Why is it that? - I tend to think of - midpoint as my my person registry, and and Tommy is gonna think of Co. Manages his. You know some of those kinds of, almost - diagnosis of the differences. Kind of thing. - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:46:33 - Yeah. And some of that, you know, is - kind of expanding people's horizons about what different ways, you can, - you know, mix and match to solve certain problems. But - - well, Tommy, I mean you've been going through the thick of this process of trying to, - to find a new architecture and figure out which pieces are there. It's an ongoing process, I know. But - ! - Are there? Can you figure out - things that might have helped earlier along the way. Or is it just a - you know, every day by day struggles to figure out the bits and pieces. But is there something that we've made it easier for you to get navigate all this? - user avatar - Bill / Internet2 - 00:47:23 - I think Tommy dropped off. Okay, Well, - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:47:28 - and - i'll ask him later. - I - you going into this. This is a hard thing to get - solutions for. - So i'm not too surprised that we're not. You know people aren't crowding the mic. But, on the other hand, - , - I guess I I keep thinking - we've got a we've got to try to help people that are coming new to this stuff, and - you know, - is there? I guess the question is, is there value in the material that we're producing out of all the different working groups we have. . This certainly goes back to the Peoplesoft integration working group, because I think we - struggle there to think about what - what kinds of outputs we can provide. And I think in the last - time or two we've talked about that we've come up with some - good ideas. But ! - I was - still hoping to hear - a bit more reflection on on that. - How we help, you know. Marry the user, the peer member and the material. We have. - Help them get through the - decision process, - user avatar - Ethan Kromhout - 00:49:19 - as you sort of glancing down our participant list for today., and we're just seems to be, you know one of those weeks where we've ended up sort of - Internet to, and catalysts partner heavy - relative to universities., But i'm, i'm wondering if this might be a - a good question at A, at a Csp group meeting as well. - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:49:43 - Yeah, I think so. . Just because they're kind of in the thick of it at that point. Yeah, they self selected for wanting to get solutions for things. Yeah, I think that's right. - I guess., - if we stick with the personal story angle. It would be interesting to - here from the catalyst folks. ! - How the how they typically run into people, and how the people present their problems. And - again, probably with with those catalysts partners. It's - a conversation that starts with those needs. But - , - maybe if some of those initial conversations are in encounters or - queries. If you could just say a little bit about - is is there a typical one, or there's I mean, I'm sure there's a great variety the ways that people turn to you. But i'd i'd love to hear a a couple of those and see if it - sparks, and he - recognition on our side. - user avatar - Jim Lookabaugh - 00:50:46 - Yeah, Keith, this is Jim. . - I. For some reason I keep - circling around one concept in my head that isn't going to be very helpful for your specific question about. You know the sort of personal stories from - give an institution's perspective, but I still think it it might - help - gather stories based on the two different ways in which I think people might approach it. One would be the the component or the piece of tooling that any of our collaborators here in these working groups are - right. Maybe some of the institutions in the collaboration success program - some of them are going to come from, - and this reflects the kind of engagements that we have. Provision I am have comes from someone who already has a a a decent amount of infrastructure in place. may even be an expert on one or more of the pieces of tooling, - and has a pretty poignant specific question of how to make best use of the tool that's already in house, - and that's a good proportion of our clients. They'll come to us with something very specific. So in in creating, maybe some guidelines or - flow charts or docentation, or or something a decision chart to help. Maybe some more novice. Folks - come to some comfort level about what tooling might work best for them at their institution. That's one. Approach one end of the picture that we could probably come from. - which is a a tool specific picture of what? Exactly. For example, let's just take midpoint. - , what kind of for Campus X. - What kind of a cool or interesting problem did you solve? Whether that was with help from you know, - industry, partners, or not, - and elicit a a a collection of those kinds of stories from that perspective, that end of the spectr, the tools, perspective down and dirty in the guts which will appeal to you know, very tech - oriented to people like myself. - Then the opposite end. This is what's been going on in my mind in my mind for the last fifteen minutes or so the other end. Would it essentially be the the user story, the use case, perspective, independent of the tool set that you've chosen for your institution, or even if you don't have a solution yet, and - you're just getting by with maybe manual intervention, or putting up with some expensive or painful process, or whatever whatever is in place. Now you're looking - almost desperately for a solution. So you're starting from more of a a tool into a technology independent use case, - gather those you listen to collection of those from people who are more apt to think that way - and see where that takes them. Okay, How have you envisioned solving it? How do you solve it now? . Sort of drill down into, maybe an abstract data flow and help Mary - those kinds of descriptions of used cases and stories to the tools that we're familiar with, and in the trusted access platform, or maybe even alternatives, like, I think, in the agenda, maybe a little further down. I was reading ahead. - We've got like three institutions who might be prepared to share stories of alternatives and help marry it that way. So it's. That's what I've been thinking. I'm sorry it doesn't really answer your question but I it might be a way to help bring some stories into a collection that we can help organize. - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:54:39 - No, I think so, and it's certainly in the space it may not be, you know precisely down in the middle of the road, of the things I talked about. But it's it's certainly in the space. And ! I think that's an interesting way to look at it. This one, I suppose, was closer. The The Ethan presentation was - culture to that. Looking from a component and seeing you know how they how they meet that how they use it. in this case it was, you know, primarily around the integration of two components. - , you know Peoplesoft stuff, and - and our tap component group. So - user avatar - Jim Lookabaugh - - but that in the same general space, I think as what you're right. Yeah, I I agree, and I what I didn't say was, we have our balance of clients in that other perspective. They're probably starting new. They don't have midpoint in house. Yet. - They've done enough research, or have gathered enough recommendations from either Internet to an in common or peer institutions, or what have you? But they've gravitated towards midpoint, and they're intrigued enough - to want to give it a try. And so the balance of our clientele asked us to help them with proof of concept in making best use of midpoint in particular. because that's the tap component that you know is in our wheelhouse. So - that's that is kind of one of the reasons why I also visited that other end of the spectr is because our clientele kind of break up into those two broad groups, anyway. - - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:56:15 - Okay? . So You' So that certainly falls into the . The first use case I would imagine right It's I've got. I i'm interested in midpoint, because I have, you know I read some things about it that think make me think it might work for us. - Could you show us? You know how you would approach solving, you know, - this Lms provisioned with the help of midpoint. Right? Exactly something that i'd like you to consider, Jim, as you're thinking through this, though, is that's that's great for it. Hey? - a use case where somebody is trying to select a tool and what we've been getting pretty consistent feedback on is - they don't even know whether or not their use Case can be satisfied by a tool, a collection of tools or no tools. - And so there are some - So the approach that we've been considering in how we smarize these things - from the user story perspective, and then drill that filling down into what the solution is. - - Your - suggestion about having a triage map makes really good sense, and it's come up multiple times over the last few years. - , so we do have to do that as well. I'm not saying that that that approach doesn't make sense. It makes great sense. - It's just that., There's sort of the the question of how we illustrate how you get to that decision based on the solution or the endgame being sought, and that by itself is a roadmapy problem that we're trying to work through. So any you might have there would be useful. - - Jim Lookabaugh - Yeah, I I agree, Steve, and I. I think I had that in my mind, too, and I was. I intentionally was blurring that line because of this, that although we are engaged by some clients to help them with the proof of concept on midpoint, I mean, there's no guarantee that they'll be happy with it right? So they have certain business needs. They need solved, - and they might not even be very confident. At midpoint - It is an appropriate solution for them, and the poc could, you know, for lack of a better word fail, I mean. Still, it's successful if you can prove that it's not a good suit. Good for you. Right? Yeah, the negative assertion is also is also a positive outcome. But yeah, - user avatar - khazelton - Internet2 - 00:58:47 - well, obviously, we haven't solved this thing in one meeting, and I didn't really expect to. But, I think. there's good ideas in this last few minutes that we can try to follow up on. - - well, we've convinced ourselves. I don't know if this is true or not. We've convinced ourselves that it's the people who - I really don't have the solutions figured out, and maybe our - coming with a pretty fuzzy picture of all this. ! If there is such an audience, then then we have to figure out. I think we haven't. - Have we done a great job for people like that?, I suppose they show up at Base Camp right? And that's their introduction to all this? - - To my mind it's a gap in our - capabilities on the trust and identity side is - meeting - going to where those people are are, and show up there, and figure out what kind of conversation have, and what kind of goodies to share. So - ! We'll keep - up the good fight